So… one year into the new job and Infosys’ Vishal Sikka has managed to perform a task noone thought possible. He’s dragged a once-famous Indian-heritage IT services firm – kicking and screaming – out of a maddening tailspin into that dark sinkhole of legacy-ness that is scaring the life out of today’s services industry.
The reason for this is quite simple – he never brought with him a baggage of legacy services culture, where the common practice is to:
1) Copy what all your competitors are saying and try to out-bullsh*t them;
2) Hire cheaper, younger staff and gut the middle layer;
3) Sugar-coat every ADM, Infra and BPO renewal with terms like “digital”, “transformation”, “automation” and “outcomes” etc., when none of these things were really included in the actual contract, but made nice additions to the press release.
Vishal just gets to the point with a refreshing and honest perspective about what his firm needs to do – and is already making shrewd investments in critical areas, such as Panaya (automation) and Skava (digital). He’s also been growing the traditional business, with Infosys just reporting its best quarterly revenue growth for 15 months (4.5% year-on-year), and overseeing several new $2Bn+ sized engagement wins in the last 12 months, with the likes of Allied Irish Bank, Deutsche Bank, NSW State Government and ICA Gruppen in the last 12 months).
The business is stable, growing well again in an industry where many competitors are scrambling all
over the place trying to find renewed direction and focus. What’s more, the management bleeding has stopped and there is a distinct new energy and passion around the place from everyone you meet.
However, where Vishal is really impacting the culture of Infosys is by driving a renewed culture, based on his Design Thinking principles, that is exciting his staff. Design Thinking is real – it’s something delivery staff, account managers and senior executives can all relate to, understand and embrace. Rather than confuse the living daylights out of people, he talks about real business challenges and how they need to be addressed. And this coming from a guy who has a Phd in Artificial Intelligence… talking real business issues to real people is quite the achievement. So we caught up with Vishal is his Silicon Valley start up-esque collaboration offices in Palo Also to hear first-hand his year one Infosys experience, and where he wants to take things next…
Phil Fersht (CEO, HfS): Vishal, it’s good to be with you here at Infosys. You’ve been CEO now for about a year, so I thought it would be a good time to check in. HfS has done a considerable amount of research into Design Thinking and how it aligns with services outcomes. Can you bring me up to speed on how Infosys is faring, with your own brand of Design Thinking?
Vishal Sikka, CEO and MD, Infosys: Thanks, Phil. It’s great having you here. We started teaching Design Thinking at Infosys back in October of last year. We brought some of our trainers here to the Institute of Design at Stanford—the d.school. Then members of the d.school faculty went to our corporate university in Mysore and started training our people.
When I say training—this is not like some guy watching a video on Design Thinking. These are one or two-day immersive sessions, where people are hands-on and actually build things. As much as possible we try to get the d.school faculty directly involved. This class has now been taken by 36,000 employees. I’m told this is by far the largest rollout of Design Thinking education in history. The d.school said this is like many times the total number of students that have taken the course at Stanford. I don’t know what the exact number, but 36,000 is just insane.
So it is not a center of excellence, where you have three, four people who understand Design Thinking. This is 36,000 employees of the company who understand what it is and practice it.
We are now creating customized training for project managers in our delivery organization. 22,000 of our 36,000 people are in delivery, and 3,000 are project managers in delivery. So we’re creating a special program for project managers to be able to bring Design Thinking into the ongoing work that they do. So in my view we are by far the biggest adopter.
Design Thinking is happening with clients, too. This morning before you came in here, we were doing some Design Thinking work with the German utility. We’ve had about 36 or 37 customers for workshops here in our Palo Alto office in the last nine months, and of course others around the world. In fact, I would have liked for you to meet Sanjay Rajagopalan who heads up our Design and Research team, but he is doing Design Thinking workshops with clients in Australia this week. We have a pipeline of 100 clients interested to do this.
These workshops are not focused on best practices. When we think about “best practices,” hidden behind that phrase is the reality that this stuff is already known. Known problems are really yesterday’s.
But then there are things in life that are unknown. So how do you go after the unknown?
We had a very, very large consumer products company here, which among other things is very famous for chocolate, and we talked about how to deal with the demonization of sugar. There isn’t a demonization of sugar package available for SAP or from Salesforce.com. There isn’t a best practice sitting there somewhere. You have to think about this.
All our lives our education system teaches to do problem solving. Nobody teaches us problem finding.
And Design Thinking is a methodology for problem finding. So that is how we see it.
Phil: So you’ve done this all in a year?
Vishal: Nine months, actually!
This space (pointing to the colorful Palo Alto office which sports writable walls and modular works spaces) and all the new spaces that we are building, they are all designed like this. These are design spaces. These are flexible. In the Bay Area, we have 3,000 people working at various clients. And we had a long conference call about Zero Distance on Monday night. This whole area was opened up and all those tables were moved here, people were working from this corner and there were a 100 people in that area. We had a giant video conference in there.
Phil: Can you talk a little about “Zero Distance”, Vishal?
Vishal: Zero Distance is about innovation. Innovators aim to maximize their relevance by reducing the distance to the user, to code, to value. I have asked everyone at Infosys to focus on getting to Zero Distance, and bring innovation to every ongoing project.
For example, Abdul Razack has a team that is doing IIP, the Infosys Information platform, which is based on Hadoop. Abdul shared with me yesterday some incredible things that they have achieved on open source technology, solving some extreme analytical problems. We have the Infosys Edge team doing new product development. And we have many teams that are doing innovative things. And they will continue to do their thing and bring breakthroughs to life.
But if innovation is done in these small pockets—like in Abdul’s team, Sanjay’s team or Sudip’s team—we’ve missed the point of innovation. Innovation has to come from everybody. It has to come everywhere. And this is why I say, “The Innovation Department in Infosys is Infosys.”
Right now we have 8,500 master projects that are going on in the company. This is the lifeblood of the company. Infosys at the end is a project company. So these 8,500 projects represent the work that we do. And we started this program to basically bring innovation to all 8,500 projects. The 8,500 projects break down into 35,000 sub-projects.
I made a straightforward five-point template about how to bring innovation to every project. And it has just taken off virally. And we do these sessions with teams where we share some amazing thing that our team did. And customers are already starting to see that.
Phil: So when you look at everything you’ve achieved in Design Thinking so far, what would you say is the critical ingredient to finding what’s not there?
Vishal: First of all, you have to have the desire—the instinct—to look for it.
I did a survey when we crossed 25,000 Design Thinking-trained members of the Infosys team. I knew at that point that this was a big moment. When we hit 25,000, roughly 12,500 were freshers—young minds just out of college. And 12,500 were the senior folks.
It was astonishing to see the spreadsheet. I was reading this thing and I was just moved. Of course one thing that was shocking was they had put this in two tabs, the freshers and non-freshers. And the older folks, their responses were always three or four lines long. And the one’s from the freshers were terse—less than one line long. Like text messages.
But the sentiment is exactly the same. There were only three questions. How do you bring Design Thinking to your work now? What has it changed, etc.? The answers from the senior folks, said it had opened up their creativity: “It is like I have seen the light, it is like I can think again. I forgot that I had a brain,” stuff like that. Amazing responses.
One fresher wrote that he went and fixed his mother’s sofa because he had done Design Thinking and because the sofa was broken. And he said, “Let me think about how can I fix the sofa.” I was reading that thing and I said, My God! It was astonishing: this is actually changing not just how people work, but how they live.
Of course it is too early to know what all this means. In the last two months, we met a few clients who tell me that there is something going on. One of the huge banks on the East Coast told me that suddenly because of the Zero Distance thing, innovation is inserted into every project. They said that it appears that the quality of work has just gone up.
We are also by the way bringing Design Thinking to our RFP process. Every response that goes to an RFP of more than $50 million now goes through this team.
Our HR team works like this. They redesigned our performance process. We just finished our promotions and they went through this thing. So it is everywhere.
It is very early, but the result of all this will be quite fundamental I believe.
Phil: So clearly, Vishal, this is having an impact on Infosys. Do you think this will have a ripple effect on a lot of the other Indian-heritage service providers?
Vishal: It will have to, it will have to. I think it is inevitable, because this thing about problem finding and problem solving, I personally went through this when I first came to Stanford.
Even though I had gone to Syracuse for my Bachelor’s degree, I still had grown up in India and was trained to do what I was told. So when I came to Stanford and I went to my advisor, and I asked him, “What do you want me to work on?” And he said, “I have no idea.” And it was a shock to me, so I said, “What do you mean? What will my PhD be on?” He said, “You figure it out.” And I told him, “No, you are supposed to tell me what problem I work on and I am supposed to work on that.” He said, “No, if this is what you thought then this is not the right place for you. You are supposed to find your own problem, we are supposed to tell if the problem is good enough or not. Then you solve that problem and then we tell you if the solution is good enough or not. This is how it works and if this is not what you thought, then you are in the wrong place.” He said this to me bluntly within one month of coming to Stanford.
And I thought they had a catalog of open problems and I would work on one of these. So that really put me into a tailspin.
Narinder Singh was a research associate there and he told me, “Yeah, people spend years looking for a problem.” He said, “Remember that guy Andrew?” Andrew was in the seventh year at the time. He said, “He still doesn’t know what his topic is going to be.” I said, “What the hell has he done for seven years?” Turns out this happens all the time. Either you luck into it and you find one right way or sometimes you spend years finding it.
So then I saw a talk by John McCarthy, the father of AI. And in that talk he made a very interesting statement. He said, “Articulating problem is half the solution.” So I talked to him after his lecture. I said, “What did you mean by that?”
He explained. He said, “Look, you know, most of the time we don’t articulate the problem right. And he was talking about it in the context of AI search. He said that when you frame the problem right, you have basically an idea of how the solution is going to work. I though this was very interesting.
And I talked to Bob Floyd who was another professor in Computer Science, also an A.M. Turing Award winner. He wrote the Floyd algorithm for graph traversal. So Bob Floyd told me that, “Oh, that is not enough.” I said, “This is what McCarthy just said—that articulating a problem is not the solution.” He said, “Of course, he’s absolutely right but it is not enough. I articulate the problem, I solve it, then I go back to see if I can rephrase the problem now that I have solved it. Then I re-solve it. And then I go back and rephrase it until I can no longer improve the solution. That is when I know that I have found a beautiful solution.”
I realized that there is so much to this problem finding, problem solving thing that I never thought about. In those days I read the books by George Polya, called How To Solve It. And actually Floyd’s algorithm that Bob Floyd wrote, was his seventh attempt of solving the same problem.
As an Indian kid, who grew up dutifully doing what I was told, this was my introduction to opening up your mind to see.
And here’s how I found my problem. I found it within a year.
Somebody told me to look at what interests you, what excites you. And I was reading many PhD theses that I found interesting. I quickly realized that at the end of the PhD thesis, people will write about the things that they left unfinished. I was reading Karen Myers’ PhD thesis and she wrote three things that her approach could not do. And I thought that this was something interesting. I was very excited by her area anyway, which is why I had read her whole thesis. When I saw those three problems, I went and I talked to my advisor and I said, “I want to solve these, I want to find an approach that doesn’t have this three problems.” He thought it was a good idea. That is how I came to my PhD thesis, based on the weakness of Karen’s approach. And one of the projects that was a part of my PhD work was Center For Design Research in Stanford.—the precursor to the d.school.
It was a part of the mechanical engineering program, and Mark Cutkosky was the professor there. He used to collaborate with my PhD advisor, and we did a bunch of projects. One of the projects we worked on in 1992 was called Design World, which was about how do you design things. So that is how I got into this whole thing. And I brought into wherever I could.
So you see I had been through this experience of problem finding and its importance myself. As important as it is to see what is there, it is as much or more important to see what is not there. This is why we’re doing what we are doing.
Phil: Vishal, thanks for sharing your current views with our readers – am sure many will appreciate them!
Vishal: It’s been my pleasure, Phil. Thank you.
Posted in : Business Process Outsourcing (BPO), Cloud Computing, Design Thinking, Digital Transformation, HfSResearch.com Homepage, HR Strategy, IT Outsourcing / IT Services, Outsourcing Heros, smac-and-big-data, sourcing-change, Talent in Sourcing, The As-a-Service Economy
What an excellent interview. So good to see Infosys bouncing back!
[…] Visualizing Vishal's first year at Infy – Horses for Sources So we caught up with Vishal is his Silicon Valley start up-esque collaboration offices in Palo Also to hear first-hand his year one Infosys experience, and where he wants to take things next… Phil Fersht (CEO, HfS): Vishal, it's good to be with you … Read more on Horses for Sources […]
@philfersht excellent interview and very topical too!
Insightful discussion, Phil. We can clearly see their focus and speed with respect to building “Design Thinking” skills organically. Am really interested to see as to how they are going to apply this at scale and generate sustainable downstream business. I hope their “zero distance” initiative does that.
great insights Phil. my 2 cents
We should not get too excited with quarterly revenue growth and attached stock price sensitivities. Share market loves profit/margin growth but the need is to “Invest in future” without expecting results in very next quarter.
Its good to have thousands of people trained but “skill” is only one piece of the puzzle. A clear and concise strategy for “as a service” offering is essential.
Last but not the least, I’d love Infosys to drink its own champagne 🙂
@Durgesh – I like the Design Thinking approach because it is a tangible, practical approach to changing the mentality of today’s “master/slave” services relationships. The industry is obsessed with the “next big thing”, but the reality is trends like robotic automation, digital technology are only tools to help us enjoy services in a more streamlined, easy to access, technologically-centric model (“As-a-Service”). We will never truly get the benefits from these tools until we start to challenge staid ways of doing things, blow up obsolete processes, write off legacy systems etc. This is a long journey that is getting confused by too much noise and hype, and Vishal gets that.
Will Infosys drink its own champagne? Let’s wait and see… early days still, but the signs are promising,
[…] Visualizing Vishal’s first year at Infy – So… one year into the new job and Infosys’ Vishal Sikka has managed to perform … with the likes of Allied Irish Bank, Deutsche Bank, NSW State Government and ICA Gruppen in the last 12 months). The business … […]
Excellent interview Phil. Vishal talked about the exact same things at Mysore DC here last weekend, except his whole Stanford journey part (thanks for covering it). Glad to have him as the CEO. Hoping that Infosys gains momentum with him at the helm. 🙂
“The Innovation Department in Infosys is Infosys.” I like this statement. Great to see the cultural transformation with Design Thinking across the organization.
Phil, You need not have any doubts about Infosys drinking its own champagne. They were drinking energy drink or water while they were running a marathon. but now they are out of race. the path that they walk will become highway so come 2020, they will be 20 Billion and I am sure you will see champagne everywhere in their campus. (PS: No alcohol in company campuses across India so lets hope there will be a new non alcoholic champagne.
feeling proud to work under such personality… really a great innovator ….persons like u r much needed for this IT era
Good to see a fresh perspective / fresh approach being brought into the Industry. Just like ‘Flat world’, ‘Centralization’, Problem Finding and Problem Solving, can take the customer experience to a different level. As the industry is getting clogged with too many players, Customer experience has taken a hit over the years and he is left wonder many a times, whether he has actually got what he wanted from the IT. Both the Vendor and Customer are tired in the end, and reconcile to the realities, which are far away from the initial design. Hopefully, Problem Finding and Problem Solving, will bring back the focus on customer ‘delight’.
Durgesh, Phil – These are complex times that a CEO has to navigate the ship in, even as he attempts to change a legacy company. The answer is multi-dimensional of course. Part of it is all what you have highlighted (Design thinking, problem finding and solving, leading people to explore, questioning principles underpinning work culture, new services models, co-creating with customers etc.), but a part is going to be also about another ‘master-slave’ equation that needs to be rustled and turned on its head – the one between the shareholders and the CEO.
I do not what the answer is but perhaps a big part is going to be about CEOs telling shareholders and the markets that they have more important responsibilities to customers and employees. That they really are not working for the shareholders speculating on the market price but for constituents without whom there is no company (customers, employees) and towards a longer journey – one of building a sustainable, resilient business that is balanced to all stakeholders and has big longer-term goals to reach. When focused on 2020 and more, why do we even need quarterly presentations of nos. by the CEO, they can just go out once a year? What happens if the market valuation falls in the interim quarters of the year, but performance is good at the end of the year (and even as more customers give business to the company that is executing its strategy well), then surely there is no big threat and investors will return? AND What happens if execution is going wrong?
Somebody has to challenge this current situation on this front too…In the meanwhile, it’s great to read about a CEO spreading passion and working to change culture, who believes in exciting employees to aspire to bigger ideas, who seeks to make change happen not by spreading fear but through a desire for change…that deserves a bit of champagne, how often do we see that?
LOLZ! I thought it will be having a quick interactive visualization of the work done in 1 year, via some data visualization libraries.
“Hire cheaper, younger staff”
Greetings from Poland (30% employee turnover).
[…] Visualizing Vishal’s first year at Infy – HfS has done a considerable amount of research into Design Thinking and how it aligns with services … Then you solve that problem and then we tell you if the solution is good enough or not. This is how it works and if … […]
[…] Visualizing Vishal’s first year at Infy – … quarterly revenue growth for 15 months (4.5% year-on-year), and overseeing several new $2Bn+ sized engagement wins in the last 12 months, with the likes of Allied Irish Bank, Deutsche Bank, NSW State … […]